Jeff ([info]badlydrawnjeff) wrote,
@ 2009-03-11 07:00:00
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Entry tags:atheism, barack obama, conservatism, constitution, constitutional issues, economics, free trade, geek, government interference, history, media, politics, taxes

Wednesday Link Dump

I think once Thursday dodgeball finishes up, I may do these thrice weekly.

* AP: “Every day, the economy is becoming more and more an Obama economy.” When the AP, which couldn’t be bothered to worry much about seriously examining Obama during the campaign, is starting to look at Obama’s agenda funny, you know we’ve hit a turning point.

* All the hypocrites who were up in arms about Bush’s signing statements raise your hands if you don’t care about Obama’s. The more glaring difference (hey, change!) is that the Obama administration is coming out with, er, I suppose we’ll call them “interpretive letters,” or, as the always-articulate Robert Gibbs calls them, the “presidential signing statement except it’s not the president and it’s not a signing statement.” …right. Regardless, we have the Obama administration outright telling its agencies to ignore the law. Y’know, I’m sure every administration before Obama has done this as well. But at what point can we drop the charade that he’s any different than them? And, more importantly, why is this okay to outright do it? At least Bush had the decency to at least use the signing statements to map out his problems with what he was inexplicably signing. The best quote from Obama? “[S]uch signing statements serve a legitimate function in our system, at least when based on well-founded constitutional objections.” Translation? “Signing statements are fine, as long as I agree with the purpose.” Thanks!

* Rachel Maddow embarasses herself on the EFCA. Here’s a note, Rachel - if you “read the bill,” you get the answer you’re looking for. Happy to help.

* Scary stat of the day: “Since the beginning of the financial crisis, officials have proposed and/or implemented roughly 78 trade measures, according to the World Bank’s monitoring list of trade and trade-related measures. Of these, 66 involved trade restrictions, and 47 trade-restricting measures eventually took effect.”

* Did the federal government miscalculate the stimulus numbers? Wouldn’t be shocking if true, but the research is suggesting that the models used to calculate the possible “success” of the stimulus was wildly inflated. The study is VERY dry but very informative and pretty damn scary, which probably means it will be ignored.

* Cap-and-trade could start a trade war. But, again and again, I’m told that I shouldn’t have to worry about President Obama and trade.

* A great piece on Mark Sanford, one of the nation’s best current politicians.

* Some great, perhaps inadvertent, factchecking on various Great Depression canards by Amity Shlaes, author of the excellent book The Forgotten Man.

* Megan McArdle with the best bailout analogy I’ve seen.

* The new religion surveys are out, and the news being trumpeted all over is how much larger the “No Religion” section is getting. The problem is that the survey fails to note the difference between “atheist,” “agnostic,” and “no religious identity,” so we have no way of actually knowing the real trends until (if?) the hard results come out. I hate to break it to my godless brethren, but I doubt you’ll be happy when we do see it.

* I’m on record as not a fan of Ann Coulter, although I do find her somewhat attractive. With that said, this interview cracked me up.

* Sales of Atlas Shrugged rise in correlation to bad economic news. This isn’t shocking to me, although I’d imagine people would be better off buying The Moon is a Harsh Mistress unless they intend to sleep through the recession.

* Site of the day (Mike will probably consider this a veritable gold mine of ideas): A Brief History of the Apocalypse, which is simply a list of every doomsday prophecy that has yet to come true.

* Funny or Die’s commercial for the new nationalized Citibank. Potty language in audio form.

* Finally, still as wound up about Watchmen as I am? Want to know what the buzz is about? Try: Ten Things to Know About Watchmen, a guy takes his parents to the flick and then interviews them, and more details about the amazing intro.

Mirrored from The International House of Bacon.



(19 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]dexeron
2009-03-11 01:33 pm UTC (link)
Rachel Maddow embarasses herself

I used to have a serious crush on Maddow, but ever since she got on TV, she's turned into an Olbermann clone. She used to be BRILLIANT on the radio. I'm really dissapointed.

I hate to break it to my godless brethren, but I doubt you’ll be happy when we do see it.

That's assuming that all agnostics/athiests/whatevers are like Bill Maher, and give a rats ass what other people believe. Anyway, I doubted this the second I saw it; I'm sure belief is as strong and as widespread as ever, even if the nature of "belief" is somewhat morphed over time. And there's nothing wrong with that, though I'll keep loudly whining about every instance of "let's try to sneak religious teachings into school curriculums through blatant intellectual dishonesty" I see. ;)

I’m on record as not a fan of Ann Coulter, although I do find her somewhat attractive.

This has nothing to do with her merits as a commentator or the quantitative value of what she says, but really? There's just something so... gaunt... and... angular... I dunno what it is about her. Too thin maybe for my tastes. But apart from her obvious self confidence and strength (which are definately plusses), I just don't see what so many people find so attractive (BUT, that's a subjective thing, I guess. We all have our "type". Didn't I just mention above my crush on Maddow? Heh. This is totally only my opinion: you can't quantify this kind of thing.) Yea, that totally has nothing to do with your post. Um, mysoginistic mode off.

factchecking on various Great Depression canards

It's getting to the point where I don't know what to think. For every pro FDR "fact", there's a conservative rebuttal. For every conservative "FDR WAS EEEEEEEEVIL" fact, there's a liberal rebuttal. I'm no economist, and I never met FDR, and frankly, having both sides shout at me about which one is right about the Great Depression makes me less want to actually learn about it, and more lock them ALL up in a room with some kind of "Saw" deathtrap. Whoever survives can tell me their theory.

Same thing with the climate change stuff, frankly. Thanks, tons of scientists from both sides. I'm thrilled that every single fact each of you comes up with is quickly rebutted by the other, and then the rebuttals are rebutted in return. I'm ever so excited that neither of you can even seem to agree about which PLANET you're talking about, since that's the only explination of how you can each hold such disparate views on the same data. Um, hey, why not step into this room over here and discuss it for awhile! Yea! Let me lock that for you. Great. I'll just go over here and ignore all of you. Let me know when you've managed to kill each other sufficiently that a "consensus" has finally been reached. >:(

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[info]wyrrlen
2009-03-11 01:50 pm UTC (link)
Regarding the religion survey, a big problem comes from the way people self-identify. A similar study a few years back asked each participant their religion. The results from that question were published to show the portion of believers to non-believers (I think there were options for atheist, agnostic, and other). In that case, non-believers came out very low - a number that I believe was less than 10%.

However, further down in the study, a question specifically asked if people believed in God. That answer had a much lower positive answer rate, and cross-tabulation actually showed that some that had self-identified as Christian actually marked that they did not believe in God.

(Now, er....I guess I should go read this study and see if this new survey did the same thing.) I just figured I'd point out that religion sometimes has a socio-political alignment just as much as faith alignment, and that it is probably true in some extent that not all Christians have god(s) and some Atheists do.

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[info]dexeron
2009-03-11 01:55 pm UTC (link)
Yes! One of the first things we learned in Research Methods was how surveys can be horribly wrong. You have to know what questions were asked, what ORDER they were asked in, how they were worded, etc. Just because a certain percentage answered "No" to "Do you believe in God" may not actually mean what you think it does. Surveys and polls like this don't exist in a vacuum, and while a properly conducted survey can provide surprisingly accurate estimates, a badly designed one is worse than useless, even harmful.

Surveys are hard enough on their own. Throw something as voltile, confusing and touchy as religion in the mix and it's a wonder anyone can get a straight answer. ;)

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[info]wyrrlen
2009-03-11 05:16 pm UTC (link)
Ah ha, this was in the ARIS link that Melvin provided below:

"Only [1.6] percent of Americans call themselves atheist or agnostic. But based on stated beliefs, 12 percent are atheist (no God) or agnostic (unsure), while 12 percent more are deistic (believe in a higher power but not a personal God). The number of outright atheists has nearly doubled since 2001, from 900 thousand to 1.6 million. Twenty-seven percent of Americans do not expect a religious funeral at their death."

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[info]greyseal
2009-03-11 05:37 pm UTC (link)
Conservative rebuttals to pro-FDR facts are a relatively new phenomenon. I had a discussion with my grandma recently which was pretty convincing that no one she knew ever questioned the greatness of FDR. I showed her the UCLA paper asserting he prolonged the depression, and she thought it was some kind of joke, the idea was so preposterous.

I think the ferocity you describe in the debate is more due to people not liking their sacred cows disturbed.

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[info]twerpalicious
2009-03-11 06:41 pm UTC (link)
My mother's side of the family lived in DC and were ardent Democrats until FDR started his first term. They were privy to a lot, and boy, did they change their tune in a hurry.

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[info]dexeron
2009-03-11 01:57 pm UTC (link)
DOOD. Those Watchmen links were fantastic. Man, I love the movie even more now.

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[info]dontuhatepants
2009-03-11 04:29 pm UTC (link)
You find Ann Coulter attractive? You *are* nuts. :)

I'll have to try to remember to come back to those Watchmen links when/if I ever have time...

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[info]melvin_udall
2009-03-11 04:46 pm UTC (link)
The new religion surveys are out, and the news being trumpeted all over is how much larger the “No Religion” section is getting. The problem is

Your link-
http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-03-09-ARIS-faith-survey_N.htm
"showing data collected over 18 years from the American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS)."

ARIS-
http://www.americanreligionsurvey-aris.org
"ARIS Links:
ISSSC Website"

http://www.trincoll.edu/Academics/AcademicResources/values/ISSSC/default.htm
"The Institute for the Study of Secularism in Society and Culture (ISSSC) was established in 2005 to advance understanding of the role of secular values and the process of secularization in contemporary society and culture."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_the_Study_of_Secularism_in_Society_and_Culture
"ISSSC develops new multi-disciplinary courses based on a common theme every year with associated faculty at Trinity College, Hartford and the Claremont Colleges, California. The cross-discipline themes include (by year):

* 2005-06: The Roots of the Secular Tradition in the West
* 2006-07: The Secular Tradition and Foundations of the Natural Sciences
* 2007-08: Secularism and the Enlightenment
* 2008-09: The Global Impact of Secular Values
* 2009-10: The Secular Tradition in General Education"

Do what you want with all that. It just seemed as if it might be worth noting.

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[info]greyseal
2009-03-11 05:32 pm UTC (link)
I don't like seeing the numbers of the religious dwindle, and I don't think it is good for America. If there is one thing people seem to need across cultures, it's a belief system, and I think in the absence of God, too many people put their "faith" in government. At the very least, your conservative godless brethren should not be happy about the survey.

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[info]wyrrlen
2009-03-11 05:52 pm UTC (link)
Melvin's link to the ARIS details found that Baptists and Mormons are actually increasing in membership, but just didn't show much change when compared to overall population growth in the country (the former increased slightly and the latter was unchanged vs. percentage of total population). Catholics appeared to lose a great number, and religious Jews dwindled somewhat steadily while overall ethnic Jews stayed constant.

I'd contend that Deism, Agnosticism, and Atheism are all belief systems (and further that those belief systems can provide a sufficient moral framework), but I completely support the notion that we should not deify government or its leaders. I believe that a religion of the state forms not from "non-believer" religions but rather religious apathy and ignorance. C.S. Lewis immediately comes to mind as the type of personality that could float from one belief to another somewhat haphazardly - woe to us if he and those like him were to have picked the Godstate instead of Christianity.

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[info]melvin_udall
2009-03-11 07:15 pm UTC (link)
I don't think what you got from that was quite what I intended. :)

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[info]wyrrlen
2009-03-11 07:33 pm UTC (link)
Heh, I meant to address that at your journal if I had time, but the quick summation would be that I believe secularization in and of itself is not necessarily negative if it occurs freely and if the change presents an equal or greater moral sense in the changed.

I understand your concern that this is an effort to drive people away from moral enlightenment and towards the Godstate. That could be a possible goal of the organization if secularization is not developed by a natural trend (ie., "forced" or "coerced"). However, I don't see anything among the links (or further, the sublinks within the links you provided) to indicate this might be the case. I personally believe strongly in the secular development of culture as described by Michael Shermer in the templeton.org debates, but that perspective promotes individual growth and independence rather than weakness and dependence on the state.

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[info]melvin_udall
2009-03-11 08:15 pm UTC (link)
This reminds me that I owe you a comment from a previous discussion on this.

My point was more that I'm less than interested in the results of polling by a group pushing ... um studying... secularization about how we are an increasingly secularized nation.

if it occurs freely
by a natural trend


Put "natural" in both places and I wouldn't have a problem. "Freely" is a matter of opinion. Was party loyalty a free choice in the Soviet Union, as they claimed? (Not unlike the recent 100% turnout with 100% in favor of one candidate vote in N.K.) Of course not. It was indoctrination coupled with outside pressure.

I couln't care less if a natural change to secularization took place. There is absolutely nothing "natural" about the current changes. It is the result of a systematic drive by one ideology, followers of which dominate education and media.

A prime example of this is how much press this study got. What difference does this make? None. It's as relevant as any number of random study results or science facts that are published daily and go unnoticed. This gets publicity because it fits the very active secularist agenda. This is to promote the idea that religion is dying, as a celebration. Not natural.

that perspective promotes individual growth and independence rather than weakness and dependence on the state.

It would appear to me this is by far the exception rather than the rule. Many people say it, but where do they invariably turn. If it happened naturally it might not be.

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[info]wyrrlen
2009-03-11 08:57 pm UTC (link)
You'd be amused to know I'd initially put natural in both places, but changed one out to keep from using repeated language (as I think of natural as being truly free...as opposed to the free choice example that we'd both agree is not truly free).

I can't argue with the idea that this information was spun by USA Today, but actually clicking on ARIS's link goes straight to the real information. Some religious groups are growing. It's not surprising to see that Catholics are declining in light of recent scandals and a change in Pope, and it's also not surprising to see that Jews are declining as a religion but maintaining Ethnic size. Atheists are actually only 1.6% of the population. There's probably blame to be laid on the feet of ARIS as well (reporting non-believers higher based on the God question rather than the self-identity question...though I think that can have a legitimate argument), but the celebration sensationalism is coming from the media.

Also, I'm not sure you can break secular movements from science and education - whether its an ideological push or a natural one. I guess I'm saying I'm not sure why people with an ideological agenda would try so hard there, as the result of both greater science understanding and religious scholarship is ultimately secularism. This is where I'd tell my good joke about expert biblical scholars all being agnostic...if I could make that into a joke.

I'm kind of dancing around my comment because it's not fully formed in my mind, but it goes something like this: a move toward secularization before our population is mature intellectually and spiritually would be disastrous - opening us up to the Godstate, but incremental motion would be expected to happen anyway assuming that we continue to grow in our knowledge and spirituality. Should we push back on all secular movement just to stop radical ideology? Can we adapt toward secular spirituality even at an unnatural pace? What action would we take? That last question especially worries me. In trying to stop communism we may well push toward fascism instead.

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[info]melvin_udall
2009-03-11 11:05 pm UTC (link)
Real quickly... Combining "secular" and "movement" more or less proves my point about secularists and agendas. They don't see it. They can't see it.

That's like saying a "science movement" or a "movement to prove 2+2." There need not be a movement. If there is, facts aren't the interest, whether they realize it or not. Whether pro or anti something (usually pro-Leftism and/or anti-Christian), there is an outside something.

I am not part of a brushing-your-teeth movement. This is because I can't care less if your teeth fall out. People will naturally learn to brush their teeth or not.

There were better ways to put that, but you get the gist. Religion may, probably will, naturally die out. Those in "movements" are usually no different than the religious they considered flawed. They just fancy themselves as different.

a move toward secularization before our population is mature intellectually and spiritually would be disastrous

Indeed. And this is a big part of my constant objection to it. Right now the populace is turning from God to MTV and the Liberal dominated Democrat Party. NOWHERE I know of where this is taking place is proving to be better off.

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[info]wyrrlen
2009-03-12 01:24 am UTC (link)
Ach, I get the gist of what you're saying, but here actually was a reverse failing of the freely/nature word usage. In some cases I was using "move" in the activist group sense, and in other places I was using "movement" to mean vector direction. Let me see if this cleans it up som:

Also, I'm not sure you can break secular movements from transitions in science and education - whether its an ideological push or a natural one. I guess I'm saying I'm not sure why people with an ideological agenda would try so hard there, as the result of both greater science understanding and religious scholarship is ultimately secularism. This is where I'd tell my good joke about expert biblical scholars all being agnostic...if I could make that into a joke.

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[info]melvin_udall
2009-03-12 07:41 am UTC (link)
I almost forgot to mention how much this bugged me.

In trying to stop communism we may well push toward fascism instead.

False choice. An extremely aggravating false choice built on constantly reinforced propaganda.

Religion was ubiquitous during our founding. It was a founding made by men who believed in a God. The Declaration itself proclaims the justification for the founding and for our rights are that they are derived from a Creator. People have lived with greater religious freedom in this country than most anywhere in the world. For quite a long time we sailed along pleasantly with a Christian majority, still have one in fact, without ever turning into the dreaded fascist state.

Without getting into a long discussion I'd rather avoid, most observations about "fascism" being so different from communism are either false or manufactured to create a bogeyman for Leftists to wave at centrists. Chief among the crock fest is that religion is one of the key factors. This is all the narrative set up from the left. Since they loathe and attack religion it is only common sense they would demonize it as a tool of what they see as the opposite team. Hitler in particular rose from the Left and considered the church only a necessary evil until he could toss it aside. In fact I could argue the only reason he hated communism and picked what differences there were was because it was competition.

Setting all that aside, let's pretend the false choice exists.

Communism killed 100 million people or so in the 20th century. It's still killing countless numbers. It caused endless misery throughout the world wherever it touched. If one takes all the "fascist" states, including the ones I would consider the accusation to be crap, and weighed them against what communism has done, if forced to make the choice I can't see how communism wins as better for mankind.

And finally, the success of the secular progressive agenda has swung SO FAR toward communism you have quite a while before you have to worry about the stereotype of fascism controlling your life. We can afford a few sane steps in reverse.


This is all part of the narrative. This is all the result of propaganda so deeply ingrained that intelligent educated people don't even realize they're doing it. The choice isn't anything remotely like communism or fascism. The choice is actually secular-progressiveness inevitably leading to communism (and eventual anarchy), or the country our founders made. The S-Ps obviously can't have people looking at it that way.

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[info]wyrrlen
2009-03-11 06:01 pm UTC (link)
The piece on Mark Sanford was interesting. What little insider information I've ever gotten from South Carolina's governors' office has told me that Sanford is not much liked by many people in the state on both sides of the aisle. However, the article gave me some new perspectives I hadn't known about him before, though it also confirmed my sources' thoughts that he was a bit hypocritical (his Sullivan's Island home was quite the scandal, yet it made about two lines of impact in the article).

I've also heard that he's not the smartest, but I didn't see anything in the article to give me that impression one way or another. However, the article had an agenda, and pointing out intellectual failings probably was not on the list. I'd like to hold judgment on his mental proficiency until I've seen more evidence. Anyway, a good read about how the outside sees our local politics.

I wonder if there will be a review of NC Governor Bev Perdue anytime soon? I was all set to dislike her based on the tone of her campaign, but her first few months have been siginificantly better than I expected.

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